Looking back at Arkham City... STORY

[FlyingGrayson]

Thanks for this!

Apologies for not being more on the ball with this, super busy here!

No worries at all! I understand how busy and hectic it can be handling us (on top of everything else you probably have going on!)

Now I'll go ahead and give MY feedback!


- What you liked

I loved how it was all sold as "one TERRIBLE night," in the same was Arkham Asylum was. Throughout the story Batman gets increasingly angry and short and that comes off very well. I actually really, REALLY liked the back-and-forth between Catwoman and Batman, and was hoping for a lot more of that. On that note, I have similar feelings to the Harley Quinn's Revenge DLC. However, I do think you guys were smart to make sure Batman was the main character and it didn't become "Batman and Catwoman: Arkham City."

- What you think improved

For the most part, I think your inclusion of other villains was better this time around. In Asylum, bosses would often times show up just for a few moments before you fight them and then disappear afterwards. In Arkham City, the villains felt more like an active part of the world that were involved and moving around, not just a convenient plot device to lead to a new boss fight.

- What your favourite part of the story was

Honestly, the twist ending.

Waaay back when Arkham Asylum came out, after running into him in the secure wing, I told myself that Clayface was going to be in Arkham City and that you guys were going to make it a surprise twist that we wouldn't see coming. I thought it would be perfect, clever, and easy to get a nice surprise out of. You'd think you were going to meet up with Catwoman and it would really be Clayface, that sort of thing.

Despite that, you caught me COMPLETELY off-guard with the twist, and did it in a much more beautiful fashion than a "surprise boss fight" like I was expecting. You guys really pulled that off very well. Kudos, kudos, kudos.

- What you didn't like

If you're scrolling through and you see how big this section is, don't think that I hated the game and didn't like it; as a matter of fact I LOVED it. There were only a few things I didn't like, but I happen to have a lot to say about them. AND, since the point of these threads is to help make a better game, I thought it prudent to spend most of my time on "things to improve for next time" instead of "I loved this, and this, and this, and this." =)

At the end of the game... there were a lot of big issues not at all resolved. For instance... uhm, what about the people of Gotham City? Many of them were infected with Joker's blood, Batman had TWO vials of the cure (one for himself, one for Gotham/Joker). He used his personal vial, and then Joker smashed the other vial. ... and then, Batman just... ... carries out Joker and leaves? What happened to all the infected citizens? We know Freeze didn't make more - Freeze says "I can't make any more than this, the process takes too long." According to Oracle, Batman, AND Joker, most of the citizens of Gotham if left untreated would be dead by morning. Why did it look like Batman just forgot about them and went home? That seems really irresponsible of Batman and very out of character.

I also didn't like Batman's wounds as much in this game as compared to Arkham Asylum. With the exception of the bullet he takes for Catwoman, all of his new wounds seem to be random and unrelated to the events that occured. In Arkham Asylum, you witness Batman get each new bit of wound or battle damage as it happens. In Arkham City, there'd just be a cutscene and Batman would walk out with a random new piece of his suit missing. I didn't like that very much.

Also, Protocol 10 was cool and all, but I was expecting something more than killing all the inmates. BUT, you know what? You sold me on it. That was cool. I liked it, unexpected.

But you know what I DIDN'T like? That there was a "Protocol 11," and it wasn't some contingency plan or diabolical plot, it was just... a self-destruct sequence. Don't give "self destruct" a really cool name that sounds like it's a plot twist when it's just an explosion, you got me all excited because I thought there was going to be more behind Strange than we realized.

FINALLY, in the drama of Joker's death, you kind of... uhm... forgot about Talia. I know Batman feels guilty about Joker dying and all, but he carries out Joker's body and just... ... leaves Talia's? If you want to say her body got snatched by the League of Shadows or whatever, that's cool, but you should have thrown in something to address it - Batman looking for her body and not seeing it, or something. Because it kind of looked like you guys just forgot Talia's body was in there >_>

- What could be improved

As beautiful as the ending was, and I absolutely loved it, I think you really shirked the real meat of the story in order to pitch it to us. The whole premise of the game, the whole intro sequence, the whole MYSTERY of Arkham City is: How does Hugo Strange know who Batman is? What is Hugo Strange going to do with Batman's identity? What is Strange's plan?!

But the game never addresses how Strange knows Batman's identity. Beyond Strange's threat in the opening of the game, the fact that he knows that Batman is Bruce Wayne NEVER gets brought up again; which is odd particularly given that it was the central plot device of Strange's character. Strange's plan is revealed near the very end of the game, but here's my other big grievance: Hugo Strange, arguably the primary antagonist for the entire game, only really is relevant in the very introduction of the story and the very end. At the very end, not only does his leverage over Batman mean nothing, but he is defeated in a cutscene. We, as Batman, don't get to beat him at all. And it's a SHORT cutscene. AND, Strange is revealed to have been nothing more than a puppet to Ras!

Now, that's all well and good - I LOVE Ras, he makes an awesome puppet master, and it totally fits his character. ... but you know what? Ras, as quickly as he is revealed to be the true master behind Arkham City, is also defeated in the same one minute cutscene. I was expecting Ras to reveal more of his plans, or some sort of a second, final showdown with Ras. ... but, nope. Two of the three biggest antagonists of the entire game are revealed AND defeated in the same one minute cutscene. It left me feeling like the whole driving point behind Arkham City went completely unresolved. Granted, this then got followed up by the amazing Joker ending, which, again, was AMAZING, but... ... I felt cheated by the conclusion to the Strange/Ras story. ... Which, again for emphasis, seemed to be the primary/main story behind the game.

FINALLY, a quick note on Harley Quinn's revenge. First of all, I liked it. SECONDLY, in the scope of Arkham City it seems kind of... odd. Nothing is really different after Harley Quinn's Revenge than it was before. There was no new twists, or developments, or ideas, it was just kind of... a continuation. Harley's mad, she's got Batman, go rescue him. It felt like after it was over... things were just the same as they were before!

Now, that's fine and well and good if what you're going for is to make mini Batman EPISODES, like of the TV series or a random comic. But if that's the case, you should have multiple random, self-contained episodes that don't really pertain to the main plot; more like a mini-series (show or comic).

If, on the other hand, you're only releasing ONE story DLC pack, and you proclaim it to be "Arkham City's Final Chapter," it should have some sort of impact on the story of Arkham City. But it seems like it doesn't, really. Like you could play Arkham 3 without having played Harley Quinn's Revenge and you wouldn't have missed out on anything (story-wise).

- Your thoughts on HOW the story was told

Part of this is actually sort of a follow up to my "what I liked." First of all, for as much as I loved the Catwoman side-story, it felt very disconnected from the main narrative. I can see why you would want to do that, but I think it would be a lot more engaging if their stories interweaved a lot more. For instance, after Catwoman got captured by Ivy I expected Batman would have a run in with Ivy; and thus Catwoman. I think having their stories interact and twist and weave a lot more would make their stories significantly more interesting and engaging to the player. I ESPECIALLY think this if you're considering having us play more than just two characters in Arkham 3 (IE Catwoman, Nightwing, Robin).

Something that I think would be particularly interesting is if you tried to sort of blend my above recommended approach and the approach you took instead (with separate, distinct stories). For example, you could have a Batman and a Nightwing story; Nightwing is over in Bloodhaven and Batman is in Gotham.

They'd start off doing their own separate things, but after a while it would become clear to the player (and then to the characters) that their paths would have to cross. So then they'd come together and their stories would weave and interact, and then maybe they could split off again. This type of dynamic I think would make the multiple-character stories more interesting.

As far as the main story is concerned (moving on from my comments on the Catwoman DLC), as much as I hail you for your inclusion of other villains, I think you could do an even better job next time. With the way the story was told, I expected more from each villain. Two-Face, for instance, you defeat within the first 15 minutes of the game, and then you never see him again (until the final Catwoman DLC mission, which I don't count). This was particularly bothering because 1) I LOVE Two-Face, he's one of my favorite villains. 2) You cast a GREAT voice-actor for Two-Face, and I was really looking forward to hearing him do more stuff. 3) His GANG continues to be a very active, powerful, prominent force in Arkham City after this point. 4) He makes a "you haven't seen the last of me, we're only getting started!" threat, which I thought meant he'd... be back later, with a plan or something. But we never saw him again after that.

Penguin I think you wrapped up fairly nicely, but I was expecting him to escape and have one last hoorah, too. Heck, maybe he and Two-Face would have teamed up to take out Batman? I guess what I didn't like about the way you handled the villains is it made the game feel very segmented. "The first part is the Two-Face part. The second part is the Joker part. The third part is the Penguin part."

I think it'd be neat if there was more ebb and flow - "You run into Two-Face at first, and then Joker, but then Two-Face is back for more. Next you move onto Penguin, but after that you have to track down Ras al Ghul. You think you're onto something, but Joker is back to bother you again. You put him down, and are back to your mission, but then out of nowhere is Two-Face again, and it turns out he's teamed up with Penguin to take you down!"

This would have made the game feel less like it was made up of clear, definable story arcs, and more like it was a living, breathing story where ANYTHING could happen and players wouldn't know which villains to expect next.

- Any Arkham Asylum/Arkham City comparisons, whether favorable or not

All in all, I think you guys did a great job with the open-world concept. The thing you have to remember is that when you make it a big open world like in Arkham City, you lose the ability to keep the narrative as tightly paced and engaging as in a game like Arkham Asylum where you can direct the player and have more control over the envrionment.

Perhaps for a third game you should consider putting some restrictions (at certain points in the story) on Batman's ability to do whatever he wants. It seems kind of silly to have Batman say "oh no, I'm dying, and Gotham is dying, and we only have a few hours to live... ... but I'm going to go rescue some political prisoners, hunt Riddler trophies, and maybe track down Deadshot." I recognize that is very difficult to do in a game where you want it to feel as open and free as possible, but I really do think the driving, primary narrative of your game would benefit as a result.




I THINK that about covers it. If I think of more to add later, I'll go ahead and make a new post. Please keep in mind that I LOVED this game, I think it was fantastic and it was one of my favorite games of 2011, I just think there are a few things to keep in mind for hopefully making the third Arkham game EVEN BETTER.




P.S. If the plot for Arkham 3 is going to be Scarecrow reaking havoc upon Gotham at large and the whole city becoming the asylum, I think you should consider the title "Arkham Outbreak."



P.P.S. It'd be swell if in Arkham 3 the mafia played a role, whether as an antagonist for Batman or Nightwing or whatever. Obviously Batman's rogue's gallery are more memorable and spring to mind easier than the Falcone and Thorne crime families, but the organized mafia has long been one of Batman's biggest enemies, and it'd be neat to see them play a role in a future game.



P.P.P.S. Seriously, why no Batman Begins/The Dark Knight Batman skin? Or "Armored Batman" from Arkham Asylum for that matter? Come on!


Thanks for reading, I hope you guys get something out of my thoughts here to improve the next game and don't think you've wasted your time. =)

[era-era]

First off, I have to say that I am very happy that this "what you liked/didnt like feature" is back. I have been waiting for this (story) segment and the environment segement with much anticipation only to think that it was scrapped. Kudos to FlyingGrayson for that. Also, I agree with pretty much everything FlyingGrayson said so I apologize if this sounds similar to his. I think he hit on a lot of the same things that I was thinking. Ok, now on to my critique. I have to say that Arkham city's story did leave me somewhat underwhelmed. Don't get me wrong it was not bad or anything but I was kind of expecting more. Here is the breakdown of the good and the bad for me.

- LIKED

I liked the broader scope that Arkham City seemed to take in terms of expanding the Arkhamverse (especially the Arkham City stories). I think Rocksteady does a brilliant job at fleshing out a game universe and expanding upon it in a cohesive way. I did also like (as flyingGrayson mentioned) the fact that villans, once they were defeated, seemd like they were still there instead of just disappearing and not showing up again (Penguin being in the museum long after he was defeated).

-IMPROVED

This is probably going to be an easy one but I would say the ending. Arkham Asylums ending felt anticlimatic especially when compared to City's. So I definitely think the ending was better, though I have to be honest, I thought Asylum's build up to the ending was better. If you could have put Asylum's build up and City's ending together I think it would have been perfect. I will address this more in my dislike section but it felt like you could have just concentrated on the joker as the main antagonist throughout the game (like in the first) and it would have built up much nicer to the Joker dieing instead of him having to share the spotlight with two other main antagonists.

- FAVORITE PART

I am not completely sure why but I would have to say that the whole romp through the museum was my favorite part. The museum was just so big and unique and had such great atmosphere. It reminded me of the interior layouts in Asylum in that they were just so much bigger and had so much more depth to them than the majority of city's. I mean I thought the church and the courthouse were totally awesome too but they were just so small. 1 or two rooms and you are done. That is one thing I wished city had. More depth to all of the interiors. The museum did that for me so I guess that was why it stood out to me so much.

- DISLIKED

Now I will say, just as FlyingGrayson did, that just because this will be long does not mean that I did not like Arkham City. I have beat the game with all 400 some riddler trophies twice (so I have technically collected a total of 800 riddler trophies combined) and have beaten new game plus twice as well. I really enjoy this game but there were some things that frustrated me.

The first is very similar to what FlyingGrayson said. It seemed like there were too many villains in the main story. Some of them just seemed underdeveloped or underused as a result. I am totally cool with plenty of side mission villains but the main story ones did not seem to have much developement or screen time. I mean Two face is literally in the game for like the first 10 minutes and then he is done, even though his gang is active throughout and he is supposed to be a major player. Him and catwoman especially, who literally had one and a half scenes with Batman, were severly underused for characters who were supposed to main players in my opinion. There did not seem to be enough screen time between any villain/catwoman (maybe aside from joker) and batman for there to be a good rapport established between Bats and any particular villain. A solution might be to limit the amount of villains in the main story so there is more developement time between Bats and his foes and then (if you still want to put alot of villains in) toss the majority into the side missions. For example, I was totally fine with Hush not getting much screen time since he was not a part of the main story even though he is a pretty big, popular villain.

This kind of leads me to my next point which is that batman actually felt somewhat underdeveloped. He never seems to show any kind of emotion or character growth throughout. Make him go through something that gets a reaction out of him so we can really start to feel the struggle that Bats is being put through. Make his character develope through out the story in a way that makes us feel like he is really affected by it.

I think my biggest gripe would have to be something that again FlyingGrayson hit directly on the head. It was that the story did not feel like one epic tale. It felt like it was two main stories that were hindered and underdeveloped by the existence of the other. You had the Hugo Strange story that starts off great and there is all this intrigue about his motives and knowing who Batman is. Then you seriously don't even confront or have to deal with him again until the end of the game. It felt severly underdeveloped for supposedly the main villain of the game. Then you have the joker storyline which felt like it was the main story of the game. The only problem is, why bill hugo as the main baddie if the joker is going to take center stage and then Hugo just kind of pops up at the end. I mean it would have been better if the three of them (Ra's, Joker, Hugo) were at least all working together on the master scheme. Then it would at least not feel like there were two separate stories. It just felt disjointed and jarring going from one story to another like that. Asylum had one clear baddie with one clear story and some subordonate characters sprinkled in on your way to him and it felt like it ran much smoother as a result.

I am sorry that was so long but I really love the entire Arkhamverse and I want to do my part to give constructive input so that the next game can be even better than the previous two. I love both of these games a ton and I can not wait to see what you guys come up with next. Keep up the stellar work Rocksteady!

[Valentine]

What you liked

It continued the same feeling that Arkham Asylum had, namely: this is the world that Batman lives in and these are things that happened in it. Games don't always capture that feeling of being a window into a place that really exists. This one did.

I think the game also did a good job of portraying the villains' personalities and their interactions with Batman. Before the game was released, you stated, essentially, that you wanted taking on each villain to feel like it should and be characteristic of that person, and I think you were successful in this.

What you think improved

I think the feeling of the world, that I mentioned above, was better in City than in Asylum. It's hard to say what it was exactly, but I don't think it was the increased scale of the game world itself: if it had anything to do with that, it was more the increased amount of space available for references ("The Black Canary"), easter eggs, and doing Batman-ish things like searching for clues and fighting gangs. It was also the increased concern, if you like, of the game; the interactions with supporting characters like Robin and Vicki Vale and references to supporting characters who weren't on-screen but are active somewhere like Nightwing, the Falcones, and the Huntress (BTW, I'd still love to play as her in a future game, even if only in challenge mode).

What your favourite part of the story was

Infiltrating the Penguin's turf. As a native of New York, I've been to the places that Penguin's museum is based on, and I was absolutely tickled by the references thereof. I felt like I almost knew my way around the subway station without using the map. I also liked the interactions between Catwoman and Poison Ivy, and the big reveal in the Monarch Theater (the third Joker-related fakeout in the game - and I didn't see it coming at all).

What you didn't like

If you just told me, without any context in the game, how Ra's al Ghul fits into the middle part of the story, I probably would have said it seemed rather contrived (the Lazarus Pit is right under the middle of Arkham City?). While I was playing the game it didn't feel as bad, because I was caught up in the story, but without context it seems perhaps not ideal.

From the early marketing, I had the impression (and maybe this was my mistake) that Hugo Strange was going to be the main villain of Arkham City. When it turned out he wasn't, it was somewhat of a letdown. Similarly, I'm not sure why it was important that he knows Batman's secret identity. As far as I know, he doesn't actually make use of this other than reconstructing Thomas and Martha Wayne's murder scene (which you can easily miss before you complete the main story - I know I did!).

Protocol Ten was not exactly what I expected it to be. This has, I think, partly to do with how Hugo Strange was portrayed (see below; FlyingGrayson and era-era also had some very good comments on this point which I agree with). It seemed rather blunt, I suppose: Strange (and Ra's) devoted so much effort and time to pulling the strings and making things happen, and having the ultimate goal be "Operation Bomb Everyone in Arkham City" felt rather underwhelming to me.

What could be improved

I think there's some . . . I'd have to say slightly careless writing towards the end, when Batman's dealing with Hugo Strange and Protocol 10. There's a cutscene that confuses me a little every time I see it, after Batman defeats the guards in Strange's control room. Strange says "You cannot win. I, Hugo Strange, am your successor." But in the next scene, his demeanor is very much the defeated villain - "You've ruined everything." This ties into the issues I mentioned before with his plans and his payoff. It almost feels like the Joker ending is supposed to be the "real" one, and the Protocol 10 resolution is almost rushing to get the player back to the Joker.

Your thoughts on HOW the story was told

FlyingGrayson and era-era had some excellent comments on this point, and I agree with many of them: including the interaction of Catwoman and Batman's stories, which I thought there might be more of. If you don't install the Catwoman DLC, you only see her three times in the whole thing, one of which she doesn't speak, which, if I may be so bold, runs against the marketing and publicity reasons to include her in a game like this.

You're in a difficult situation when you do a Batman game, because Batman has arguably the best gallery of villains in all of comics. Most of them could easily be the main villain in a graphic novel or movie, and most of them have been at one point or another. Wanting to use as many of them as possible is understandable, and wanting to give us the opportunity to interact with as many of them as possible is admirable, but of course this means that some of them won't get as much screen time as they could. I wonder if it might help from a story cohesion point of view to actually have slightly fewer villains. After all, you did so for Asylum - and in the comparable post-release period for that game, I don't think anybody seriously complained that Two-Face and Catwoman didn't have any screen time in that, because the story was very good on its own merits.

Any Arkham Asylum/Arkham City comparisons, whether favorable or not

Arkham City's story was much bigger, while Asylum's was generally more tightly written and plotted. Contrary to what some of the press reviews said, I think that Asylum was better at exploring Batman's psychology and mindset. The sense of danger was much more palpable in Asylum, and getting to walk through the hallucination events was more effective than non-interactive cutscenes at illustrating what it means to be Batman, that he's not just a guy in a cape but an individual who has grabbed the steering wheel of life and wrenched it onto a path of his own choosing. Overall, I enjoyed both games greatly.

[Matches_Malone]

Likes
-Overall story was great
-Intro was incredibly interesting, gripping & surprising.
-Penguin's involvement & new take was unique, refreshing & yet somehow one of the most accurate portrayals of the character in any media.
-Joker's death was exactly what it needed to be. It had the proper climax & outcome.
-Batman's mentality, behavior & dialogue were spot on.

"Dislikes"
-Lack of Gordon. Gordon is essential to any Batman story, a quick interaction with him at the very end just wasn't enough. Coordinating with him to get the hostages from Penguin would have been an easy way to work him in. We need rendezvous with him at the Bat-signal & conversations that convey their complex friendship. The use of the password "Sarah" was, however, one of my favorite moments of the game & a great nod to the character.
-Two-Face: I didn't hate the way he was portrayed, I just felt he was more Two-Face than Harvey Dent & came off as a very shallow interpretation of the character. There needs to be deep nods to Harvey's, Batman's/Bruce's & Gordon's past friendship/working relationship. Everytime Bruce goes after Two Face, it should be more about Bruce trying to save Harvey from Two Face & we should feel the guilt Bruce feels for not being able to save him.
-Ra's could have been saved for another game IMO, or should have been revealed as the puppet master at the very end as set up for the next game. Instead I felt one of Batman's grandest (in scope, he's not my favorite) villain's got a rushed arch that puttered out too soon.
-Overall too many main villains were used & killed off. Ra's & Hugo's death & threat within the setting were less impactful because of it.

[Sambam17]

Well I think the story was awsome and the side missons just made it better

[NHr]

I do not like the fact that Dr. Strange was ... empty.

[SionisWayne]

What I Liked
I liked how immersive the story was. There was really a sense of urgency in progressing through the story. I loved the amount of side missions in the game. They definitely added an extra depth to Arkham City.

What I Think Improved
The scale of the story improved the most. There were many different layers to the story. There were several unexpected twists & turns.

My Favorite Part Of The Story
My favorite part of the story was Protocol 10 and how Batman & Alfred interacted. I also loved Penguin's involvement in the story and the gang war at large. I thought that the introduction was very well handled, and is one of the best game intros.

What I Didn't Like
I didn't like how Hugo Strange wasn't the threat that he was showcased to be. He just turned out to be a puppet in someone else's scheme. Hugo, in the comics, was a brilliant scientist, strategist and physical fighter. His obsession with and being Batman was highly watered down. I didn't like how there was not a battle between Batman & Hugo Strange. Hugo should not have went down as easy as he did after the Wonder Tower predator room.

I also didn't like how Protocol 10 felt so rushed. The hours counted down much too quickly. Protocol 10, itself, could have been more fleshed out.

I didn't like how few & far the character switch points in the story were. Catwoman should have definitely had more segments within Arkham City. She should have had interactions with Black Mask & Harley Quinn. Her interactions with Two-Face could have had more depth. Also, why were we not able to use Catwoman during Protocol 10 after breaking into Strange's vault and going to rescue Batman. It would have given us a greater experience of Protocol 10 with lots of added gameplay.

What Could Be Improved
The length of the story could definitely be improved. With such a host of villains in the world of Arkham City, it should not have ended as quickly as it did. The possibilities were endless. I'd like to see a longer story with even more twists & turns.


My Thoughts On How The Story Was Told
I thought the story was told rather well, even with it being rushed at certain points. It did flow smoothly; nothing that happened within the story felt unnatural. Everything served a greater purpose within the story.

Arkham Asylum & Arkham City Comparisons
I felt as though Arkham City improved in every single way in regards to story. Still, there is a lot of room left for further improvement.

[Xevyn]

The main thing I'd improve is...add other characters' stories. Nightwing and Robin. Other than that, excellent story.

[thedarkjoker]

What I liked - The voice actors were superb. Keep the same actors like Scarecrow from the asylum. Get Jensen Ackles for the Red Hood if he's in the next game.
What I thought Improved - Fighting/Flying
Favorite part of story was - When you fought Joker in the Funhouse
What I didn't like - What happened to Joker at the end. I want Joker back with Mark Hamill.
What could be improved - Graphics Unreal Engine 4 HINT and Way longer story mode at least 20 hours longer
How the story was told - Good job on the story telling just way to short
Arkham Asylum/ City comparisons/favorable - Arkham City was a better game while Arkham Asylum was a better Batman game.

[Valentine]

Arkham Asylum/ City comparisons/favorable - Arkham City was a better game while Arkham Asylum was a better Batman game.

My name is Jose, and I endorse this product.